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A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
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A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21 at osnews dated yesterday
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 A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 73
Registered: 2009-07-15
I saw this review at osnews dated yesterday, about Paldo 1.21, and found unbelievable that someone can write a review relating problems that no one found before at Paldo, and completelly demotivating the readers to, at least, come to try the distro. The reviwer did not even seem to have cared to come here to the forums and present it's issues, to get an answer, if anything else, to provide it's readers with some kind of work arround to the problems he found.
As it seemed to be a trully unfair review, I did care to comment it, just moments ago (as user "nillbug").

Pls, see here:

http://www.osnews.com/comments/22987?view=flat&perpage=15&order=n&sort=&threshold=0
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Created: 2010-03-11 16:09
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Senior Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 216
Registered: 2008-07-04
Zerobug, I actually see your point and his point.

I do know that there are missing things but I do think he needed to be asking to the community as well to see the answers.

We do talk about paldo beeing one of the greatest operating system, and I do believe that but I can't disagree with some arguments. The installer do need better options. But as I know how to fix the things I don't have from the installer it is not a problem

I just posted and answer (big answer) explaining some points and as I finish I said that paldo does have some bad things to be fixed, but there are lots of systems that have bugs that are very problematic and I can quote one

I use opensuse as well, since some proprietary packages are made for it. So I had installed the opensuse 11.2, and I do know how to use opensuse (And I also know that YAST is a great thing, and it would be great to implement a control center for managing some files on paldo as well ... I'll see if it is simple enough to be done). Now The newest opensuse have to huge bugs:

1) On gnome edition they have made banshee as the default video player, but until this last month banshee crashed on video playback using nvidia proprietary video driver.

2) Who the ... said it was ok to release an operating system that is widely used with KDE and found to be ok to use a really problematic and not completed done networkmanager as the KnetworkManager. On the release version many people couldn't connect to WPA and WEP Wireless, also If you could connect you couldn't use firefox only command line to access the repositories and upgrade to fix the problems.

So one of the most famous distros has problems. Now also Ubuntu has lots of bugs when using ATI opensource driver. Not to say the crashes on Fedora when using Intel modesetting and plymouth. And what about Debian that on testing branch until now the nm-applet is not able to detect the wired connection (This is Debian the most stable distro of the world as claimed). Not to say gentoo that released it's 10th anniversary liveCD with no ability of installing and also problems which made them re-release with 10.1 version. Can I say more, let's see mandriva with lack of dependencies on texlive, and also the problems of kwin xcompositing

Oh lets comeback to opensuse and remember that it released with compiz 0.7.8 which doesn't allow blender to be used in a window only fullscreen mode.

Now to quote the worst: Windows, nothing else to say.

So here is that fact that every little distro have been releasing with problems, and they are all fixed later, and so is on paldo. but we don't have 1000 users chatting on our IRC, we have like 4 (counting with the ChanServ ).

The case is We should looke the review as a new user getting in a different world and not beeing welcome as it should.

So his points are:
1) we have a weak package-manager ----------------------- But I think we have a great package manager but lacking of documentation

2) we have lack of options on the installer ------------- So lets add them

So looking at this problem we should first improve the paldo wiki experience, and a good Idea I saw was what foresight did. It used Yelp to write a whole book explaining how to use the system. Maybe we could use it.

Also the lack of keymaps and ZoneInfo options could be easily implemented. I have to say that Amnon did a great job on installer but as he left us the installer has beeing stagnated for a long time.

So lets improve Paldo to prove that this is the best system!

We don't want to be big but we want to keep having an operating system we trust everyday for our tasks.
 
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OSs: Paldo-testing x86_64 :: HP Pavilion dv9680ez
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Created: 2010-03-13 14:56
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 50
Registered: 2009-02-26
Some good points about improvements. Perhaps we should start small, though, and add some more FAQs. For example, probably everyone wondered when they first started with paldo what the difference was between upkg-add and upkg-install. Maybe users could also suggest ideas for an additional tutorial or two for the wiki.
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Created: 2010-03-15 13:59
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  Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 50
Registered: 2009-02-26
Some good points about improvements. Perhaps we should start small, though, and add some more FAQs. For example, probably everyone wondered when they first started with paldo what the difference was between upkg-add and upkg-install. Maybe users could also suggest ideas for an additional tutorial or two for the wiki.
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Created: 2010-03-15 14:01
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Mitglied
 
 
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Posts: 92
Registered: 2009-02-26
I could create a small video documentation.. what about a paldo-channel at youtube or vimeo?
 
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Created: 2010-03-15 21:50
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Senior Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 216
Registered: 2008-07-04
Hi everyone, first someone needs to remove this spam from aobama52 :??
EDIT: The spam has been removed already

Also I'm sorry, but I'm on a busy time of my year so I lost a bit of my attention (it is actually 1:11 AM and I working knowing that in 4 hours I must be up again to get out )

So first I'd like to say that having a youtube or vimeo channel seems great but we need videos specific and more direct, for instance a video explaining how to use gparted for partitioning for palod installer is a good thing, but for instance a video explaining how to use f-spot might not be as great.

Second I agree with subgoo that FAQs and wiki needs improvement. But I know one thing that foresight linux did that I found really nice: they have used yelp (gnome-help) and create pages with a whole documentation that the user can have on the desktop to do everything such as how to use package manager and install the extra codecs. This also allows easy translation for other languages.

To actually do a good documentations we actually need a focus and by focus we should interprete as a first sketch. So for first sketch I advise we to add a wiki page named Doc_Sketch where we can brainstorm some ideas. I think for start maybe we can add to this page (appending username and date) common questions, and add a proposal for summary topics for documentation.

The summary can really organize everything, if we get a summary by chapter of what should be the topics of our doc, we can latter divide the work around community to get a more complete work.

So summarizing: create a wiki page for brainstorm of topics for documentations and frequently questions.

As I stated I'm really busy right now and will need more one month to be free again, so I can't take the responsability of coordinating it now .

So what do you think?
 
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Created: 2010-06-09 06:20 | Modified: 2010-06-10 01:07 by diogo
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 73
Registered: 2009-07-15
Hello everybody

I appreciate very much the idea about trying to improve everything about Paldo, our preferred distro, according to each of our (the users) knowledge and availability to participate.

As a starting point we may need to find about the profile of the actual and future typical Paldo user. I have seen in the net a few comments saying that Paldo is not easy for beginner computer users. Perhaps because the management of the packages can only be done in the cli, or maybe because we do not have lots of gui tools, like it's common to be seen today in many distros, to cope with the modern concept of "user friendly distro".

Then we could choose or decide if we will prepare a few how-to's about doing in the cli some current operations for each we do not have a gui, if we would code ourselves some of those gui's, or if we'll go on with a mix of both things, witch we would then define.

Another important step is to have an idea about the time required to preform what we think is more important to be done, and also fix some of its timings. Not because it will take a huge amount of hours. It's more about knowing how many of us could participate and how much free time each will be able to spare for it.

We may also need to find what will be the best way to communicate among us. As a starting point, we could open a new topic for this subject, and continue from there. Or maybe lets first wait for some more suggestions.... I'm not sure.

What do you think Diogo? It's good to know that you can coordenate this project and surelly it's not a problem at all, to wait for the best moment when you and anyone else will be available.
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Created: 2010-06-14 11:06 | Modified: 2010-06-14 11:26 by zerobug
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Senior Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 216
Registered: 2008-07-04
Hi everyone, sorry for the hidden time, I was participating on a internation contest and the deadline was near the end.

But now I got more free time.

We were talking about documentation, so I decided to create an article about upkg. Here is the thread about it: http://forum.paldo.org/index.php?action=topic&topicnr=735

Since, those that know me, know that I hardly speak less then a lot :P .

I know that wiki is important, but there are things like this article that are not objective and so I don't believe it to be suitable for a wiki.

I hope that this text help you out, and if it needs correction please yell at me so I can fix.

I the good thing is to have 2 documetation series: inside and overlook. The inside series should cover in depth the details about things, like the text above, and the overlook is the series of text that are supposed to be objective and simpler, these ones I think are suitable for wiki pages.

Well what do you think?

--
-- ANSWERING zerobug thread
--
Hi zerobug,

I think paldo is indeed intended for user friendly, but it is rough on the edges right now. I've been using linux for about 10 years now, and from all the ones I used, paldo seems easy, because it is simple.

The fact is, if it didn't intend on being easy, it's package management would be using xml as the default syntax, which is probably the most easy syntax to be understood.

The filosophy of being a "just works" system also approach the user-friendliness, because, if a system provides you the option of just installing a package and nothing else to do to have it working, this mean easy for me. For example, to install the system is a 5 steps (next, next) operation. All the codecs are installed.

As contrast, on more advanced systems, like debian or gentoo, you need to do much more steps to install, much more steps to get all the codecs working.

Now as I said, paldo is rough on the edges, it is a small community, and has very few developers (2 or 3 if I'm not mistaken). So the lack of gui is a problem, because most users, are a little scared by the command line. But creating a gui is not so simple.

I believe that creating documentation so our users get aware of how the system works, can make our possible gui developers grow. I mean that if we create documentation to help people understand the system, then someone in the crowd will appear capable of making a GUI tool, which I don't know if I or maybe you would.

If you take a closer look on upkg, you'll see that it is much more simple than many other package systems. Read my text and you might see upkg with another eye.


Concerning what I said that making documentation more deep then objective how-to-use ones is a bit necessary, I'm sure if I ask in here what is the difference between upkg-install and upkg-add commands, just a few would know (maybe one ore two). If you read the text I wrote you may end up understading a bit about the difference.

So when you propose that we ourselves code some gui-tools, I get a little concern that if we (the whole community) don't get aware of how the system works in general, we may end up with incomplete or not well designed gui's.

Did you also know that at the folder /usr/share/doc/$PKG_NAME/ there are some of the default configuration files of the /etc? For example, if you loose the file /etc/default/kbd which defines the keyboard layout, did you know you can get the default one installed by the kbd pkg at /usr/share/doc/kbd/default-kbd-paldo?

You didn't know, right? See my point? We may need to work on documentation as a way to improve our knowledges so our future improvements gets more consistent.

--

So as you can see, it appears that I talk too much . Well, I think pol might be the first to complain about the long text
 
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Created: 2010-07-23 20:41
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Junior Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 1
Registered: 2010-07-25
I give away used computers to needy students.
Over the years I've checked in on Paldo & it is installed on one othe units.
I am a fan of Gnome and up-to-date Open Office is a requirement. Since everyone loves multimedia, the fact that Paldo's hardware detection is great is a big plus.
While others use Ubuntu, I feel anyone can learn " su" "upkg-upgrade"

Please DON'T waste your time on a pretty GUI for upkg. I just read the "Inside ..." article.

It provides in depth explanation of the workings of the packagae manager.

Please continue to focus on the 4x a year stable updates of the KEY packages you support.

Thanks,
 
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Created: 2010-07-25 18:24
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 Re: A crazy and biased review of Paldo 1.21
Senior Mitglied
 
 
 
Posts: 216
Registered: 2008-07-04
Hi LarryDC,

I'm glad to hear you like the direction the project have taken so far, it means that the developers are doing things right.

The fact that you claim "anyone can learn 'su' 'upkg-upgrade'", is indeed a fact, but the true statement is "anyone can learn, but not everyone wants to learn that ". That's the fact about GUI's, they are the means to allow those that don't want to, don't have to.

The main problem I see with gui's is that it never offers as much options as the command line does, so at the end the developer always comes to prefer a complete command line and a basic gui with trivial tasks.

But if we take a look at the real concept of making gui's, we will understand that that makes sense, which means, gui's are supposed to be for those that don't want full control, and these people don't want to do anything else other then the trivial/basic tasks.

Now considering your concern about the developers wasting some time with GUI's. If you take a look this "improvements" series of posts on this forum is basically an effort of the community, with no developers involved. So I think devels will not waste there time about that, at least not right now. I'm pretty sure that they know that there are more important things to be concerned right now.

Since we are in here motivating a community of users to do some extra improvements to this project, I started to become a little worried that the efforts could go on the wrong direction. The first problem is that maybe one week later I would start seeing a lot of basic gui, and new programs would sort of appear trying to fill the gaps that the users have found.

Now, I'm nowhere near being against that... if a sort of boom of projects come out to appear here it would be great, but since paldo doesn't have much documentation, then things could be going badly develop.

As example, let's that someone now develops a gui for paldo. Now it became a common sense that sometimes paldo fails with a problem on the cache directory. If the developer doesn't know much about upkg, it will then create a function that would say that if the process fails we should try to delete the whole /var/cache/upkg and then try again. That's actually wrong, because your forcing the user to download lots of binary packages that he already have download, once you if you knew how to handle such cache problem you would not do so.

About this caching problem, I seem not to have explained it on the text. Upkg downloads the spec from the server and caches it on /var/cache/upkg/$repo/specs/$file , but upkg only downloads it if the file doesn't exist, if the cache file exists then upkg ignores the download and use the cached one. Here is the problem, if somehow you have had problems downloading a spec file that it did produced an empty file on the cache but with no content or not completed, upkg will fail to validate/read the correct file. So you don't need to force people to remove the whole cache directory but only the file that failed, or maybe if you wish the spec directory on the cache folder. This will not make the users have to download once more all the binaries that were already cached.

When I wrote the article, I had in mind that some of these knowledges were not public yet, and so I intend to share some of the explanations so people get aware of things work, and so the efforts for making things like GUI's don't get bad reviews from users because of bad direction of the project.

With that article I think the community will be more careful when making decisions, or even better some of the common bugs that happen because of lack of knowledge may disappear.

Concluding... , LarryDC, I don't think you should be worried, paldo will probably be the same, having about 4 stable releases/updates per year, and being very up-to-date. What I think can happen from all of this discussion is the start of some parallel projects, like documentation, that can not (in it's essence) harm the performance and direction of this linux distribution.

Once again, I'll say, if you have an idea for paldo, that you think it's good for the whole community, please open a thread in here, communicate and share with us. It doesn't matter if your idea is a complete C program or just a simple bash script that will organize the grub menu, if you think it will improve the user experience on paldo please share here .
 
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OSs: Paldo-testing x86_64 :: HP Pavilion dv9680ez
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Created: 2010-07-26 01:54
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